Mahesh Raja
CC Madhya 7.130 Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
Little Bengali abc and they think they know it all:
731208SB.LA Lectures
You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.
You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.
Bhakti Vikas Maharaja interpolation:
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
From Bhaktiviksa Maharaja Interpolation:
So, that purport from CC Madhya 7.130 should read.
So, that purport from CC Madhya 7.130 should read.
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided. . One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided. . One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Therefore, one should act as madhyam and preach. Accept as many disciples as is practical.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lets look at what Bhaktiviksa Maharaja states and think IS IT THE TRUTH? Does what he say make sense?
One
should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a
first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such
thinking should be avoided.
1) Advanced devotee does he think it is BEST NOT accept disciples? HOW?
If that was a FACT then it contradicts Maha-bhagavata as Diksa guru:
If that was a FACT then it contradicts Maha-bhagavata as Diksa guru:
“It
is stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a
controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples
from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the
guru.”
So HOW can it be ARTIFICIAL thinking?
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The
guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service.
There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from
the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for
all kinds of people. It is said: gurur nrnam. The word nrnam means “of
all human beings.” The guru is not limited to a particular group. It is
stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a
controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples
from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the
guru.
2)
NOI 5 does NOT ADVISE one to accept DISCIPLES on Kanistha level or
Madhyama level It simply states they CAN accept disciples. BUT it
strongly advises devotees to ACCEPT Uttama Adhikari as Guru INSTEAD:
“Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a
spiritual master.”
NoI 5
In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
3) ALL the disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada’s 07-09-77, Letter to All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
4) ALL Disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada:
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
5)
Disciple belongs to whoever gives DISCIPLINE TO him: In ISKCON we are
ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions
(DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic
discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative
Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE
being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila
Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
6)
Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he
does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from
where it should not
Madhya 16.74 The Lord’ s Attempt to Go to Vrndavana
“One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into gold.” One should judge by action, not by promises. A maha-bhagavata can turn a living entity from abominable material life to the Lord’s service. This is the test of a maha-bhagavata. Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism. Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not. He thinks that everyone is competent to accept Krsna consciousness if the chance is provided. A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the maha-bhagavata and serve him in every respect.
“One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into gold.” One should judge by action, not by promises. A maha-bhagavata can turn a living entity from abominable material life to the Lord’s service. This is the test of a maha-bhagavata. Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism. Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not. He thinks that everyone is competent to accept Krsna consciousness if the chance is provided. A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the maha-bhagavata and serve him in every respect.
740115mw.haw Conversations
Prabhupada: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, “Kick them on their face with your shoes, so-called scientists.” “Accident.” There is no question of accident. Mudha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita as mudhah, rascals, naradhama. Naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Krsna, but they avoid it, they are naradhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and…” mayayapahrta-jnanah. Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Krsna, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. The supervision of Krsna. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kanistha-adhikari will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikari will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikari, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikari. He does not make any distinction.
Bali Mardana: He does not preach.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. He’s paramahamsa. Does not preach means he preaches, but he comes to the second-class platform. The first-class platform means he does not make any distinction between devotee and nondevotee. He sees everyone is engaged in Krsna’s service.
Bali Mardana: Does he consciously come from the first-class to second-class.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Jesus Christ says that there was many things to be said by, by…
Bali Mardana: “There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.”
Prabhupada: Yes, so that means he’s first-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He’s first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But… Just like Lord Buddha. He’s God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that “These rascals, they will not be able to… Let them stop meat-eating, that’s all. Let them become sinless first of all; then they will be able…” So his main preaching was ahimsa, non-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, “Thou shall not kill,” but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmah kaitavah: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating.
Prabhupada: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, “Kick them on their face with your shoes, so-called scientists.” “Accident.” There is no question of accident. Mudha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita as mudhah, rascals, naradhama. Naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Krsna, but they avoid it, they are naradhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and…” mayayapahrta-jnanah. Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Krsna, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. The supervision of Krsna. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kanistha-adhikari will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikari will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikari, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikari. He does not make any distinction.
Bali Mardana: He does not preach.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. He’s paramahamsa. Does not preach means he preaches, but he comes to the second-class platform. The first-class platform means he does not make any distinction between devotee and nondevotee. He sees everyone is engaged in Krsna’s service.
Bali Mardana: Does he consciously come from the first-class to second-class.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Jesus Christ says that there was many things to be said by, by…
Bali Mardana: “There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.”
Prabhupada: Yes, so that means he’s first-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He’s first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But… Just like Lord Buddha. He’s God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that “These rascals, they will not be able to… Let them stop meat-eating, that’s all. Let them become sinless first of all; then they will be able…” So his main preaching was ahimsa, non-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, “Thou shall not kill,” but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmah kaitavah: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating.
Right on the dot prabhu! I hope this analisys which your grace have so elocuently presented with such accurate shastric evidence regarding the polemic guru-disciple issue and Srila Prabhupada's unique position as the actual deliverer of all the fallen souls who come to his movement will shed some light into the hearts of, if not all, at least some of the conscientious personalities who may be there in the society of devotees of Iskcon. All glories to H.D.G. Srila Prabhupada! All glories to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! Hare Krsna!
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